tlhIngan Hol:discuss/Archive2015
All of these discussions are very old and have therefore been archived in January 2016. Please do not edit these. If you have any questions or want to add something, please go to . __TOC__ Damn Anyone checked some of the pages on this site recently? Apparently not. Just sayin.-- 20:40, October 25, 2009 (UTC) Transliteration I am rather new to Klingon, but I'm learning. I noticed that "Q" tends to be transliterated as "Kr" in English, as in "Qo'noS/Kronos" and "Qugh/Kruge," and that "S" seems to be done for both "s" and "sh." Is this right? Also, I've seen "gh" transliterated into quite different sounds. For example, "Qugh/Kruge" (pronounced "Krooj"), "ghIlghameS/Gilgamesh" (pronounced like it looks) and "veqlargh/Fek'lhr" (pronounced "Fehklar"), but how can this letter sound like all three? It sounds like a "g," a "j" and an "h?" I understand transliteration from and into Klingon can be difficult, but how are these supposed to sound? I'm just trying to understand (by the way, I've read KLI's guide to Klingon sounds).-- El Payaso Malo 21:24, 30 June 2009 (UTC) :Wow, people must not get on here alot. In addition to the above information, I was wondering if it would be reasonable to use the word Sargh to refer to the horse, as it is used as an equine analogue and has been refered to as an "arboreal equid species". It seems that Sargh is to horse as vIghro' is to cat. Any thoughts? -- El Payaso Malo 09:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC) ::Yes, you're right, there's not much happening here - unfortunately. And you ar right, a Sargh can certainly be used to describe a horse, although it is meant for a Klingon horse. (but honestly, nobody knows what that looks like.) ::Transliterations are never perfect, and usually do not fit to the real word. This also happens with transliterations we know from english. Best is to stick to the klingon spelling to find the correct pronunciation: Qugh is pronounced like KROOGRR, and the the Klingon pronunciation of veqlargh is VAC-LAARGRR. ... it's really difficult to write, you must hear it. Lieven 20:09, 18 August 2009 (UTC) :::Thanks. As far as I can tell, Klingon "gh" sounds more or less like an English "H" from the way the KLI and others' recordings indicate: [http://www.kli.org/tlh/sounds/phonemes/gh.au gh], [http://www.kli.org/tlh/sounds/ghobe%27.au ghobe'], [http://www.kli.org/tlh/sounds/HIghoS.au HIghoS], [http://www.kli.org/tlh/sounds/nvo%27yIghoS.au naDevvo' yIghoS], [http://www.kli.org/tlh/sounds/nvo%27peghoS.au naDevvo' peghoS], [http://www.kli.org/tlh/sounds/Heghlu%27meH.au Heghlu'meH QaQ jajvam], [http://www.kli.org/tlh/sounds/%27arlogh.au '' 'arlogh Qoylu'pu' ]. I understand that ''Sargh is a Klingon horse, but vIghro' is a Klingon cat, yet it is used to refer to all cats. I figured Sargh could be used in a , at least until Okrand comes up with a different word (which I seriously doubt). Let me known what you think. -- El Payaso Malo 06:15, 21 August 2009 (UTC) ::::After thinking about it, I noticed that "gh" is described as similar to "the French gargled 'r'" and that maybe Mister KLI didn't pronounce it correctly. That would make it more in line with your description (you've been doing this longer; who am I to argue when senority?). That also means that this is one of the hardest languages to pronounce (the "Q" gets me when the next consonant requires the tongue in an entirely different place). The "gh" is close to the "H," just more death metal/Cookie Monster sounding, right? -- El Payaso Malo 08:43, 23 August 2009 (UTC) :::::Yes, you got it. If you really do speak french, the the Klingon gh sound *exactly* like french "r", as in "les roses rouges roulent rapidement". And yes, H sounds like you got something in yopur throut. -- Lieven 21:11, 24 August 2009 (UTC) ::::::I see. Well, I don't speak French, but I think I almost got it down. The problem is, it seems that my "gh" resembles my "H," and pronouncing it at different points of a word (beginning, middle, end) is frustrating at times. With practice, I should get better at it. I hope. I guess it depends on which language you started with. Eventually, I hope to be able to edit this wiki and read and write books in Klingon, but I don't think that I'll ever be conversational in it. I edited the USA article by updating information on their sovereign, but I don't know how well I did. I assume well. -- El Payaso Malo 01:54, 25 August 2009 (UTC) :::::::Am I supposed to allow the gh to leak into the next vowel? My vocal chords usually continue to vibrate for most of the syllable. Should I stop the gh sound before it gets to the vowel (like in '' ghobe' '' for example)? -- El Payaso Malo 02:01, 30 August 2009 (UTC) Human and tera'ngan What is the difference between "Human" and "tera'ngan" anyway? :The difference is that Human describes a race, while tera'ngan describes the origin. Of course most Humans are Terrans, but some Humans who were not born on Earth might be called Martians, if they want. Other way around, a Vulcan can be born on earth, and is an earthling - if he wants or not.Lieven 09:06, 6 January 2007 (UTC) special pages I created my account and was greeted by an english Message... how/where is it possible to change the contents of special pages? btw: edit should be "choH" imo... Drahflow 18:52, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC) case sensitivity On a side note, I like the case-sensitivity feature implemented on tlh.wikipedia.org, it may be useful for the wiktionaries; is it activable by namespaces or only for the whole project? : It has been suggested for Wiktionary before. I want it there too. — Timwi 14:20, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC) (another side note: MediaWiki:linktrail should be changed to: /^(a-zA-Z'+)(.*)$/sD on the Klingon wikipedia, as uppercase and apostrophe can happen in the suffixes apparently. : Thanks, Pne already fixed this. — Timwi 14:20, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC) mu'mey nov (foreign words) How shall we treat words from other languages, such as names for places, people, languages, peoples and that like? I actually began simply writing them in italics, but maybe it's a better idea to "Klingonify" them. In the entry on DIvI' Hol (federation languages, i.e. English), I wrote 'InglaD for instance, which would be my transcription for "England". I agree that names of persons should be kept in a form like: Marc Okrand. What do you consider a better solution? England, or 'InglaD(my personal favorite). --N-true 13:26, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC) :The tlhIngan-Hol mailing list FAQ says that marked transliteration is discouraged but acceptable and suggests using the original form and marking it as a foreign word e.g. with quotes. :Though I can certainly see a case for a Klingonification, as happened e.g. with qa'vIn, probably from caffeine. OTOH I'm not sure whether we should force foreign words into the straitjacket of Klingon phonotactics — for example, whether France should become vranS or something more Klingonic such as ran or vIranIS. :I think that if we do use Klingonified article titles, the original spelling (if in the Latin alphabet) should also exist as a redirect, e.g. [[mI' Mach|mI' Mach]] to [[mI' maH|mI' maH]] for Mach number. (And the article name should not include italics but its definition instance in the first sentence should.) :I also think that the transliteration should come from the name in the original language, not English, as far as that can be determined — so, for example, DochlaD or Do'yIchlaD rather than jermanI', and something like maSqa' rather than moSqo' for Moscow. -- pne 10:38, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC) :Or, to take a current example from [[Ubykh Hol|'ubIH Hol]], I'd prefer roSSI'ya' over raSSa and tIrqI'ye' over turqey. I'd also tend to end words with a glottal stop rather than a plain vowel, and to minimise the number of word-internal CV syllables by adding an apostrophe as well. -- pne 10:43, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC) ::I like your idea with the CVC way of transcription. However, I actually thought that a transcription from English might be a better idea, since the Klingons on Star Trek are actually exposed to English (i.e., DIvI' Hol) and would probably get their foreign words from there. --N-true 13:26, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC) :::Hmmmmm.... good point. Yes, you're probably right. -- pne 15:05, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC) ::::Let's say the Klingons actually did visit Earth without the Federation's knowing it… This would give us pghangS for "France" (as the Klingons are likely to have heard it). "Russia" might be known from its earlier name and thus yield ruS. Ethnonyms are the way to go lest tlhIngan Hol fall victim to "over-DIvI'fication". Besides, you can't really say that English is the native language of Earth. Interesting "pne" used tIrq there! That's what the Turkish language is known as at the Klingon Wiktionary; more specifically, tIrq Hol. "German" is Doych Hol. "French", is a bit trickier and is rendered pghangS Hol. "Esperanto" is 'eSperanto', in keeping with "tlhIngan QIchpat" (Klingon phonology). By the way, my name's mInDu'Donbe'. I essentially run the Klingon Wiktionary. The way he {M.O.} devised the language was brilliant. Coining may be discouraged by puritans but is many times necessary. After all, in the end, who is to say but Marc Okrand?… ::::P.S.—Please forgive my fervent random editorials, I'm a "mad linguist"! (probably.)—MInDu'Donbe' 18:05, 2 February 2007 (UTC) :::::FYI: since the release of Talk Now software, we have learned several transliterations, which proves lots of the above as being wrong. The new words are now used thourghout the wikia, and when not available, the so called "fall back" language is always english. Anything else would make it too confusing -- Lieven, Klingon Wikia Admin (talk) 18:58, January 17, 2016 (UTC) Interwiki Why are the links to Klingon Wikipedia from other wikipedias not treated as interwiki links (i.e. they appear in the message body rather than in the "other languages" box? e.g. tlh:tlhIngan Hol link at en:Klingon language :Interwiki links to the Klingon Wikipedia were disabled by the developers. I believe that reasons included the fact that some people were worried that links to a Klingon Wikipedia would cause the WP project to lose credibility in the sight of random visitors. I think it was also part of a compromise: let tlh: exist but disable links to it. You'd have to search the mailing list to see more. -- pne 07:59, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC) :Interwiki links DO NOT work anymore, because this new Klingon Encyclopedia is not a wikipedia project anymore. Don't do interwiki links. They will not work.Lieven 09:06, 6 January 2007 (UTC) :: Interwiki links might not work, but if you take the full link of the wikipedia page and put it in between [], you have a working alternative... ::: but then we file them under "Hur De'", not "latlh Holmey"... see ::: qa'pIn qorghon puqloD 12:29, 11 January 2007 (UTC) WHAT THE HELL IS THIS LANGUEGE?!?!!? Klingon, obviously. --N-true 14:47, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC) :Then write that in English on the Main Page, so people could know.... ::Tell me any language that does this. :-P — N-true 14:50, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC) :::English? -- 20:43, October 25, 2009 (UTC) :::: Probably all other languages which has the disussion of its main page in english. Why is only some of the navigation tools in Klingon? :::::I'm guessing they're template issues. --Algebra 23:19, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC) ::::::As for now, all navigation tools will remain in english, because that's easier for the users to find their way. Lieven 09:06, 6 January 2007 (UTC) Aargh! How am I supposed to understand Klingon?!?!?! Ilyanep : How are you supposed to understand Estonian, Wallon, Esperanto, Malay or Sanskrit? ô_o — N-true 14:13, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC) ::If I may jump in here. This page isn't intended to teach tlhIngan Hol. Teaching languages is far beyond the scope of any encyclopedia. If you want to learn tlhIngan Hol, try contacting the Klingon Language Institute (kli.org). You'll need to buy the Klingon Dictionary at the very least to get started. (as a side note: I've never heard of the Wallon language) -- wIlyam 172.169.196.187 04:39, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC) ::Try Wikibooks, and help others by editing those books with how to speak Klingon. Chadlupkes 22:55, 12 March 2007 (UTC) : Wallon = language that is spoken by a few people in southern Belgium. Belgian man isn't it walloOn? :It IS Walloon with two Os. It's also French, no more no less. The region is called Wallonia (Vallonie/Wallonie in French depending on who you believe) and the people are Walloons - but they speak French. :walloon is French, but there are some differences. An example; 'soixant-dix' is 70 in french, but in walloon it's 'septant'. There are a lot of this sort of differences. ::Walloon is actually a separate language from French; as are Faroese from Icelandic, Belarusian from Russian, Kashubian from Polish, Yiddish from German, etc. This also explains why French orthography is lacking the letter å.—MInDu'Donbe' 17:41, 2 February 2007 (UTC) Audio Ebooks Has anyone experimented with tlhIngan Hol audio ebooks? Seems to me they would be easy to create, and most useful for beginners to learn the language in a more meaningful way. If I want to learn German, for instance, I can think of few better ways than reading an audio ebook of a Nietzsche or Schiller work. Another avenue of pursuit should be to team up with Indymedia, which also has translation projects. It also occurs to me that with a kind of lingual buddy system, we could team up with the Navajo, for instance, in mutual translation projects across English, tlhIngan Hol, and Navajo. Navajo is a living, vital tongue as is tlhIngan Hol, and such pairs may well augment one another greatly in the mutual pursuit of development. Any ideas? Feedback? fgwilson@sbcglobal.net :I guess not. qapa! How does one say "pearls before swine" in Klingon? :: One doesn't... the Klingon Encyclopedia is not a teaching tool for tlhIngan Hol. qa'pIn qorghon puqloD 09:33, 11 January 2007 (UTC) ---- Isn't this a little silly? I hope that this isn't funded by money from the same donations that fund Wikipedias in real languages. --English Wikipedia User NoPetrol 00:07, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC) ilililililililillil Wiki image I have to hand it to you... you're an ambitious linguist! Just wanted to note the Wiki image seems cut off. Darnit, dunno how to make an internal link refer to en.wikipedia - RoyBoy 06:49, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC) 49 or 50 How come the front page says 50 articles when http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Complete_list_of_language_Wikipedias_available says there's 49? (This is just out of curiosity) I can't really read klingon so i might have just misread something. Bawolff 01:11, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC) :That page isn't generated automatically; someone goes around every month (or more often) and updates it based on some autogenerated reports from elsewhere. The end result is that it's imprecise, but generally gives a good idea. Grendelkhan 09:09, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC) What is the point?!!! What is the point of wasting space and resources (albeit not much, since no one in his right mind adds articles) on a made-up language that is about as useful as Pig Latin? I think it's an insult to the ideals and goals of the Wikipedia project to even have garbage like this listed on the front page alongside real efforts to make information available to people across the globe. This entire Wikipedia should be a candidate for speedy deletion. :An interesting comment from someone who didn't bother to sign the comment. I wonder how many languages this person speaks. Considering the value of learning any language increases the ease at which other languages can be learned in the future and introduces concepts not in one's own language to expand a person's mind I would say tlhIngan Hol is as valuable as any other constructed language. --wIlyam 05:53, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC) ::Which is to say "not very". ;D — 16:16, June 25, 2010 (UTC) ::But why the heck are you not having this discussion in Klingonian? - That would solve the problem of people writing here IN ENGLISH arguing that it is nonsense to have a Klingon version of Wikipedia. No other language community would accept any silly user peaking in and writing IN ENGLISH on the discussion page that it is nonesense to have these pages at all! -- Is it that you do not know this language at all? Is it that there is not even a linguistic community which could communicate using it? Well then, get rid of this Klingon Encyclopedia. It's just rubbish!!! If you think it's not, then please keep your discussion in KLINGON in order to prove that it is not... :-P -- Another guy who doesn't bother to sign his comment, because he thinks that it sould be removed quickly along with all the other NON-KLINGON comments... ;-) bIQIplaw'. tlhIngan Hol DaghojDI' vaj chaq ghItlhwIj DayajlaH. tlhIngan Hol ghItlhlaH 'ej jatlhlaHchugh vaj qay'be' ja'chuqmeH Qu'. Dajbej Holvam, 'ej vIghoj 'e' vItIvqu'. nuch SoHbej ponglIj Da'angbe'mo'. 'ach jISaHbe', ghIlab ghew vIbuSQo'. tlhIngan Hol ghItlhlu'meH 'ej llaDlu'meH 'ej ghojlu'meH mu'ghom'a'vam chenmoHlu'. 'oH tIvjaj Hoch tlhIngan Hol jatlhwI'pu' ghojwI'pu''e' je. pItlh, Lieven 09:06, 6 January 2007 (UTC) :majQa'! not "Klingonian"qoq vIQoypu'pa'. Depmey QIv vIvupqu', mu'IQmoH. HIloj, SqotIy: naDev yInroH val vIleghbe'! :lughbe''a'?—MInDu'Donbe' 19:15, 2 February 2007 (UTC) :::Whats the point of learning a fake language? I agree with the OP no matter how many languages he speaks. Also, i can fail to sign my comments whenever the hell i please. Elvish I've noticed that Wikipedia has a Klingon Wikipedia. Can someone make an Elvish Wikipedia? I know that two elven languages (Eldar and Sindarin) were created by J.R.R. Tolkien. They are much more complex and completed than Klingon. I would create an Elvish Wikipedia myself, but I do not know the two languages. → JarlaxleArtemis 03:24, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC) :What's the point of an Elvish Wikipedia if there's nobody to write in it? You admit that you don't speak either language. :If there are people who speak them, let them make the suggestion. -- pne 07:51, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC) : It's my understanding that none of the languages created by J.R.R Tolkien where ever revealed in anything other than his published stories, wheras Klingon has a huge known vocabulary. Even if the elvish languages where more complete than Klingon is, no-one living can actually speak them to the same proficency displayed by Klingon speakers. Just to make a comment on the first person to post here, the Elven languages come in more than two forms. True, there is Sindarin, but there is no "Eldar". You are probably thinking of Quenya, the tongue of the High Elves that passed over the sea into Valinor. These two languages contain a few simple words, but no grammatical structure to speak of, and are by no means complete as far as any but Tolkien know. There is also Silvan, but that has no real words at all. You can construct simple words from Elvish using the Appendix to The Silmarillion, but only that, and nothing more. --Qapla' pIqaD I have written a program to convert Romanized Klingon to pIqaD, using the CSUR unicode mapping. Would anyone like a converted Klingon Wikipedia? :I think that would be even less useful than a Romanized Klingon Wikipedia. :Given that the idea of Wikipedia in a given language is to provide information to people who prefer that language (which I'll assume for the moment), and there are probably few people who speak Klingon better than a language with an active Wikipedia, there are probably even fewer people who can read pIqaDqoq better than Romanized Klingon. (And the so-called pIqaD isn't even the real Klingon script, about which we know nothing beyond its name). -- pne 10:25, 30 May 2005 (UTC) ::pIqaD pages are indeed fun, but not very useful to learn klingon. Lieven 09:06, 6 January 2007 (UTC) :Mugh hal De'wI' qaq. Chadlupkes 22:56, 12 March 2007 (UTC) Wiktionary Hi, just dropping by. I think it might help things out a bit if the people here were to work on a Wiktionary first. Uploading the content of a dictionary not only creates a useful online database, but also helps with remembering words oneself. It's also way easier to upload a small page on a single word, as one only has to make the first template that all other words will follow, and then just fill n the information later. With a few minutes a day per person, it would be no problem uploading a few dozen words per day. :This klingon encyclopedia is not a dictionary! Lieven 09:06, 6 January 2007 (UTC) :the Klingon Encyclopedia should be seen as the Klingon version of the Encyclopedia Brittanica: not an English dictionary, but a book about the universe around us, written in English. qa'pIn qorghon puqloD 15:06, 10 January 2007 (UTC) ::Have you ("you" being the anonymous bydropper who started this topic) seen/been to/heard about the Klingon Wiktionary? I am the main editor there and it is gradually increasing. I can't think of another wikibased Klingon dictionary out there, can you…? BTW, apart from the individual words themselves, the content there (at KW) is entirely original, so as to avoid copyright infringement, etc. Anyway, I hope that sheds some light on your wondering if there is an online open-content Klingon-language dictionary.—MInDu'Donbe' 17:21, 2 February 2007 (UTC) :They are going to close the tlh wiktionary. Is there any way to save it? Possible set up a new one on Wikia? - Duomillia/Cha'SanID'ya I dropped a quick note about the planned closing of Klingon Wiktionary on their community portal. If anyone's interested in having / not having it hosted here, or in some way connected with Klingon Encyclopedia, or is interested in helping set it up separately on Wikia or elsewhere, give a shout over to those folks. Thanks! --Brion 21:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC) :The Klingon Wiktionary is still not quite closed, but is essentially dead. The data has been ported to Wiki, which is thriving. Qapla'! joqral 18:45, 25 November 2007 (UTC) learning request Hola , quiero aprender el idioma Klingon, como hago para obtener los principios basicos ( por enquanto) de la Lengua Klingon request has been posted by user , who first posted it in a wrong page -- Lieven